Why people buy, with Katelyn Bourgoin March 30, 2022 NEW EPISODE When you understand why people buy, you can market smarter. Katelyn Bourgoin joins the show to share how you can unlock marketing superpowers through customer research. Listen to this episode to learn: Why customers “hire” products to do a jobHow marketers can extract insights from customersWhy mining reviews and testimonials is a copywriting superpowerDifferent ways to validate what you hear from customer interviews Watch the Clayton Christensen video here. Connect with Katelyn on LinkedIn and Twitter. Please listen, subscribe, and leave a rating and review! Transcript John Tyreman: Hi, gang. Welcome to Episode 45 of the Digital Marketing Troop podcast, where we talk with marketing leaders and practitioners about topics you can apply to your digital marketing campaigns. I’m your host, John Tyreman, and we have a special guest today, Katelyn Bourgoin, CEO of Customer Camp. She helps you figure out what triggers people to buy so you can market smarter. Follow her on Twitter @KateBour, that’s K-A-T-E-B-O-U-R, and sign up for her weekly newsletter, “Why We Buy”. First Kaitlyn, I just want to thank you for the workshop you did for us a few weeks ago about the power of customer research. And that’s what inspired me to reach out to you and have you on this podcast. That workshop was like a lightning bolt of inspiration for our team. So I just want to take a minute to thank you. Katelyn Bourgoin: Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. I think that as marketers, we are such creative people. And when given the right insights to kind of connect, we can create amazing things. And so it’s always fun when marketers get another tool in their toolkit to kind of gather those insights that are going to just lead to better work. John Tyreman: Yeah, we were talking about it before we started recording here about how marketers need to connect the dots. And I thought that was a really good way of putting it. Well. Katelyn, let’s start here. Can you explain the concept of jobs to be done to our listeners? Katelyn Bourgoin: Certainly. So jobs to be done – it is… there’s a number of really smart people that have come up with this theory around what drives people to buy and try new products. And what creates demand essentially. And a lot of it comes from the world of innovation. And of course, it’s very applicable to marketing as well. So the basic concept is this: like for so long marketers obsessed about knowing more and more and more about customers. So we would create personas that are based on attributes of our customers, we try to look at like correlation between customers and say, like, you know, how many of our buyers are women? And what age demographic? And what are some of their psychographics? Like, what are they interested in? And we would use all of that to get clarity on who our customers were. And while this is better than not doing that type of work, you know, just straight up trying to target everybody, it was still leading us in the wrong direction. And so Clayton Christensen, along with a number of other folks, including Bob Moesta, who’s a personal mentor of mine, spent a lot of time trying to unpack this problem around like, why is it that some new solutions come to market and people get really, really excited about them, and they sell like hotcakes. And other things get launched that people spend enormous amounts of time developing that in, you know, in theory, smart teams are creating these things they should do well, and they thought and fizzle. And what they found after looking at, I think it was 20,000 product launches, some by big companies like IBM others by scrappy startups, they found that basically what would indicate whether a company was going to be successful was how well the teams understood the job that buyers are trying to get done. And jobs to be done is really the shorthand for understanding the progress that a person is trying to make and the circumstances around their journey. So we pull products into our lives, you could say that we hire products, to help us to get a specific job done in the same way that you might hire a person. And in similar ways to hiring a person, there’s this criteria, you know, you think about the job description of somebody or hiring, you know what you want that person to do for you, you’ve got some set criteria. The same is true for how we buy products and how we hire service providers. There’s set criteria, there’s circumstances around the progress you’re trying to make and our goals and our objectives. And this is what’s come to be called the job to be done. So what was so compelling about this research and this way of shifting your thinking is that like, it doesn’t matter necessarily, what attributes our customers all share. That’s not what’s most important. What’s most important to us, as marketers, and as innovators trying to create compelling solutions is the job they’re trying to get done. Because people don’t buy things for demographic reasons. They buy things because there’s progress they’re trying to make, there’s a situation that they’re in, and some solutions will work better for them than others. So that’s a long way of saying essentially, when you understand your customers’ jobs, you can then design products that help them to make progress in the ways that matter to them better. And you can market those products way more effectively, because you’re not just speaking to somebody because of the demographic information or the firmographic information of the company they work for. You’re speaking to them from the actual progress that they’re trying to make, who they’re trying to become. So it’s a shift in thinking for both marketers and innovators. John Tyreman: Yeah, I was gonna say that is a big mindset shift for a lot of marketers. Well, Katelyn, can you give an example of a product that consumers might hire to get a job done? Katelyn Bourgoin: Absolutely. So, one of the famous examples, Clayton Christian, has this really great video. I encourage everybody to go and watch it, maybe we can link to it in the show notes. But he talks about the job that people might be trying to get done when they hire a milkshake. And they did this research with a fast food chain. And spoiler alert, it was McDonald’s. And Bob Moesta was actually the person doing the research. And he went out and he watched to see what types of people were buying McDonald’s milkshakes, because they were trying to sell more of them. And he noticed this really interesting trend. And it was very surprising. A lot of the milkshakes that they were selling were actually getting sold before 8am In the morning, which surprised them. And so he came back the next day after kind of taking all of this data to see and have a chance to talk to some of these people who are buying these morning milkshakes. And in hosting these interviews with them, similar to what we’ll I think we’ll probably keep talking about this chat, what he discovered was that the people that are buying these morning milkshakes, they all had the same job to do. And that is that they had a very long and boring drive to work. And so they weren’t starving. It’s not that they needed a full meal. But they wanted something to satiate them, something to enjoy along this drive to work. And they chose a milkshake because it had the right functional dimensions: it fit in their cup holder, they could hold it with one hand and hold the steering wheel with the other hand, and it lasted a long time. So when you have an hour long commute into the office, you don’t want to necessarily just eat a banana, it’s gone really quickly, right? Or eat a bagel, because then you have to, like have that open, maybe you’re trying to put jam on the bagel while you’re driving, and it’s challenging. You’re supposed to be paying attention to the road. From the perspective of these people, the customers, based on what they were trying to achieve, the milkshake was a really great solution. It was really practical. It worked well while driving. It lasted a long time. It, you know, sat in their stomach, filled them up until lunchtime. And it was just this nice treat to give themselves in the morning. And what I love about that story is McDonald’s ended up taking that research and they ended up doing something untraditional with it, they didn’t actually… They ended up spending more to try to figure out how to get people to buy more milkshakes and make their milkshakes better. But they actually then made a huge shift in their business and moved into breakfast and became a big dominant player in the fast food breakfast market. Before that they weren’t really selling breakfast, you could show up and you’d still get hamburgers and french fries at 10am. So it’s interesting to see how a company can take these insights, learn more about their customers and then develop new products. And one of the other things McDonald’s did was they launched the Chocolate Frappuccino, which is you know, you put a shot of coffee and a milkshake, and you call it a frappuccino. And suddenly you have a morning acceptable milkshake. So it’s really fascinating when you learn about your customers, what you can take out of that and how you can use that to market smarter and create more innovative products. John Tyreman: Katelyn, let me ask you. So these are great examples. How can marketers go about researching customers and collecting stories like this? Katelyn Bourgoin: So this is the part that really blew me away the first time I tried it myself and I saw it done. So as marketers, we know we want to know more about the customer. We want to understand and empathize with the people that we’re trying to help. And marketing is about helping, right? It’s about helping people discover our products, helping them discover solutions that are going to help them to make the progress that they’re trying to make. And hopefully that’s our products. And if not we can direct them to other solutions that might be a better fit for them. But you know, I ran an agency for years. And when we thought about customer research, oftentimes what that meant were surveys, it meant looking at Google Analytics and looking at you know, our Facebook Audience Insights. That’s what customer research often meant. Maybe it was a focus group, bringing people in and showing them a product that was coming to market and asking their thoughts, and all of that is well and good. And there’s a place for all of it in terms of like understanding customers better. But this tool that Bob Moesta has in you know taught me and now that I teach others is this concept of understanding a customer by talking to people who have actually bought a new solution and trying to understand the details of what made them switch from their old solution to their new one. Because, as marketers, what we want to know is how do we get people to switch to our products. And the purpose of this interview isn’t to ask people necessarily what they think of the new product which is what people often do in customer interviews. It’s all about, well, you know, how would you write this product and did it stand up to your expectations, and it’s usually very product centric. The goal of this interview is to understand the entire buying journey that led that person from first realizing that maybe they might need a new solution, what I call the trigger event, all the way through to looking at other options, potentially trying other things, considering what might be the right solution, and then choosing, you know, narrowing down their choice that to a few things, choosing the one, the solution that they bought, and then evaluating it and using it determining if it’s working for them, if it’s getting their job done. And as a marketer, I have found no tool that gives you as much in depth insight as one of these customer interviews to understand the buying journey. There’s nothing else I’ve discovered that is quite as powerful. And so I call them Clarity Calls, because there’s things that come out of these interviews that you would just not be able to gather using any other source of customer research. So that’s the tool to discover the job. And you can’t just ask somebody to tell you what job they’re trying to get done. Because they wouldn’t be able to answer very honestly. People don’t think about their purchases in that way. They actually don’t think about their purchases all that much in the moment. And so what also happens in this interview, which is fascinating to do, and fascinating to watch, is you watch people that you’re interviewing, go back and kind of like pull these memories out of their own mind and have moments of reflection and realization that maybe they didn’t even know were there until they started really thinking through it, because they never really considered the buying journey in that grade of detail. So you just get stuff that you just wouldn’t get in any other way. And from that, you can start piecing together the details, and really getting clear on the kind of the progress they’re trying to make in the context of their situation. And that’s the job. That’s the process. John Tyreman: This is a way to get at some very deep qualitative insights. If marketers don’t have access to customers, how would you recommend that they extract this information? Katelyn Bourgoin: So there’s a couple ways. What I would say is marketers should fight for access to customers. It’s one of those things where there’s other options, certainly, and you can get some great stuff. But it’s one of those things where there’s really very little that’s going to give you the same level of empathy that you can get by having an actual conversation with a customer. One of my sayings is that, you know, empathy doesn’t travel through osmosis. Like the idea that you can just sit down and interview the sales team, or, you know, look at a bunch of data in a dashboard, and get the same level of empathy that you can get by actually having a conversation with real customers, it just doesn’t happen. So I will caveat to say, you should always try to get to talk to customers. There’s not another method to build empathy as quickly and as effectively as conversation. But let’s say that you don’t have access to them right now. And you want to be able to get a win for maybe your client or your team, so that you can start to build that trust and get more access. So a way that you can do that is – there’s a couple different methods, but one of my favorites is what’s called review mining. So if the product that you’re trying to sell is one that people write reviews on, and testimonials are a form of review, so I will say in the B2B context, if you’re gathering testimonials from from customers, you’re writing case studies, you can use testimonials as a form of reviews. But this idea of going through reviews, and these are usually written by the happiest and the angriest of customers. So you get, you know, a full spectrum of emotions. But going through those reviews, finding reviews from the customers that have bought the product that you’re trying to market and maybe from competitors’ customers as well. And reading through those, you’ll find some really, really juicy insights. People will talk about their trigger events. They’ll talk about what led them to consider the solution. They’ll talk about their pains with other solutions. They’ll talk about their goals, what they’re trying to achieve. Sometimes they’ll mention how they discovered the product, so you get a sense of like what channels they might be coming in through. One thing that’s becoming more conversational in the marketing world now is this idea of like dark social, that like so much of how people discover products happens on social media, and it’s not happening on our channels as brand owners. It’s happening in their own Twitter DMs and it’s happening, you know, when they’re scrolling on Instagram, and so there’s a lot of stuff that’s not easy to track for companies. And so you can discover channels that maybe you wouldn’t have easily been able to track. You can discover, you know, what were their anxieties before they bought? And of course, you can discover what they think about the product. You know, what do they love about it and what isn’t great about it? And then you can use all this – all this stuff you can gather through review mining, to extract really great copy. Like this is one of the secrets of the world’s best conversion copywriters, they do a lot of review mining, but also to come up with ideas of being like, “Okay, well, if we know that that’s a common trigger, how else might we be able to get in front of people that are experiencing that trigger?” Or “Oh, we know that that’s a goal they’re trying to get done, maybe we should create a really great blog post that walks through that process for them and use that as a way to get in front of people that might have a similar job to be done”. So the process of review mining, really a great one. If not, if you don’t have access to customers for conversations, you can always send a survey, and I do have a kind of like six question survey. It won’t get you everything you would get in an interview, but you’ll still get a lot of great insight. And you can, it’s a great method of validating some of what you’re hearing in interviews, too. If you do a couple of interviews, and then you survey a larger group of customers, then you can kind of validate what you’re hearing in interviews and see that you’re on the right track. So surveys, review mining, one on one interviews. And kind of the last channel, I would say to gather some of this intel would be you can always use social listening. So you know, you go on and see what people are saying about a brand. A lot of… there’s tools that allow you to do this, but you can also just do a search. So you can go into like a Facebook group where your people hang out. And maybe you can search in the group for keywords that might be relevant to your brand. You can do advanced searches on Twitter to find people talking about particular brands, there’s always that approach, too. And then you can mine stakeholders. And the thing about mining stakeholders that I would say people should be cautious of is sometimes what the internal team believes to be true about their customers doesn’t necessarily pan out to reality. Clients and teams can often be quite aspirational. And it’s not always aligned with reality. So I’d say that one is one that can be super handy, but take some of what they share with a grain of salt and then go out there and, and validate through other forms of research and experiments. John Tyreman: That is just so true. The teams have these aspirational beliefs about their brand, but that’s just not reality, in most cases. Katelyn Bourgoin: It’s funny, I’m working on a new program. And one of the sections that we talk about, like how do you find your best fit buyers? And firstly, it’s like, why are so many companies having a hard time doing that? And I was thinking about, like, how do I share this topic in a fun way? And then I realized it’s kind of like, there’s a really great analogy for why it’s hard. It’s kind of like finding like that perfect fit pair of jeans. Like, it’s hard to find them. Because for one, you can’t just look at them on the rack, and know if they’re gonna fit you well, they might look great on the rack, and then you get them on and they look terrible, right? Or you know, you can be very aspirational, where there’s a particular size that you want to fit into. And so you try to squeeze yourself into it, rather than going up a size just because you’re not willing to accept that maybe they’re not the best fit for you. And then the thing that happens so often, especially with people that work with clients like you and I, is that you might think a pair of jeans look really great on you. But then you don’t realize that every time you bend over, you’re showing plumbers’ cracks. So with a lot of like, times we’re working with clients, they think they are targeting the right buyers, and they’re unaware that maybe they’re not the right fit, where others are able to see that and they can. So it’s funny that you say that because it’s something I’m kind of thinking through right now, like how to share this, but it is – it’s challenging. John Tyreman: This is really great stuff, Katelyn. And we kind of started to talk about it a little bit in terms of like how we can apply these insights from customer interviews. But I’d really like to get into that. So how would you say that marketers can take the insights that they get from these one on one interviews, review mining, social listening, talking with internal stakeholders? How can they then take these raw ingredients and then apply them to their marketing? Katelyn Bourgoin: So there’s lots of ways to do it. And the – I guess it depends on you know, what is the objective of your campaign that you’re running or the project that you’re working on? If you’re designing a new landing page, then of course, you’re thinking about copy. And you’re thinking about how do I help people to overcome objections and so you might be particularly interested in your review mining to focus on what were the anxieties people had before they bought and how do I then make sure that I work into my landing page, copy that shows – helps them to overcome those objections. Like if, for instance, I was doing some review mining, like kind of as a demonstration for this new thing that I’m working on, and I went through and I was looking at all of these different brands that sell CBD gummies for stress relief. And one of the common anxieties that people talked about in their reviews, they actually shared it as a delight, they were saying, you know, I’m really glad that these don’t make me foggy, or that I’m able to be myself because there was a big anxiety before they bought that I’m going to take they’re thinking of it as this cannabis product. And they’re like, I’m going to take this and I’m going to be zonked out of it, and I’m not gonna be able to do my job. And they were there’s a lot of fear there. So if you’re reading these reviews, and you’re seeing people saying, you know, I’m really glad it makes me, you know, it didn’t make me like, not myself, or didn’t make me drowsy. It’s like, okay, that’s an objection people might have. And we need to help them overcome that. So in our landing page copy, how do we speak to that? How do we share testimonials from other people saying that it wasn’t an issue for them? Maybe we call ours the non-drowsy version, and we kind of position ourselves that way, if they’ve tried others that did make them drowsy. So I guess it always depends on the project at hand. But what I’ll say is the things that you’re listening for, there’s some pretty common things that if we gather those things, regardless of the application, from a marketing perspective, we’re going to find things that are useful. Should I kind of go through and share some of those? John Tyreman: Sure, yeah, I think that would be great. Katelyn Bourgoin: So I think about what you’re listening for, whether you’re having an interview, or again, if you’re doing review mining or a survey, I like to think about it all in time in respect to the buying journey. Because ultimately, as marketers, what do we want to do? We want to take people through the buying journey faster. We want to help them to discover us, and then to trust us and to like us, and then to buy from us, and then hopefully tell their friends about us because they love it so much. And so that’s what our goal is. So when I think about the things that matter, through the research process, I kind of bucket them into the different stages of the buying journey. So there’s the thinking stage of the buying journey. And what matters at that stage is, you know, what are the triggers? When did people start? When did somebody first realize that they might have a, you know, a problem, and they might be open to discovering a new solution? Because if you can figure out what those triggers are, you can figure out how to get in front of people who are more likely to have experienced a trigger event. So there’s lots of… there are different examples of this in my work. Maybe what we’ll do is… in the session we did with Silverback, we actually interviewed you about your purchase of a mattress, a new mattress. And one of the triggering events that you described was that your kid puked in the mattress, and you had to get up and change the sheet. And again, we’re reminded that the mattress just wasn’t where… it wasn’t in great condition, it was an old dingy mattress, and it might be time to replace it. And so knowing that trigger, it kind of tells us a lot that we can think about from a marketing perspective, right? Like who has… people who might be puking in bed, like parents with younger kids, like, you know, toddler aged kids, where they’re still getting sick a lot. And this idea of like, when you change the mattress, the sheets, you’re more likely to recognize that you might need a new one. Well, that’s a pretty strong visual that you could probably use in a campaign if you wanted to. So as you start to kind of pick out these different things, you can start to apply them to your campaign. So there’s the trigger event, which gives you a sense of like, when you might be able to get in front of somebody like what may be the right moment. There’s the pains that they have like pains that are things that are stopping them from making progress, struggles that are holding them back. There’s like the goals that they want. And all of this is usually happening within kind of the thinking stage. And then somebody will get pushed into starting to look for a product. And now what we’re interested in is okay, when they actually start looking, what channels are they looking in? Because of course as marketers we want to be in the right channels. Are they googling things? Are they watching YouTube reviews? Are they asking friends? Are they going to the mall? Like understanding their discovery channels are going to help us when it comes to choosing where to put our efforts. And then this is the one that I think is so interesting and often gets overlooked: is what other solutions did they try? And not just solutions that look like your product, not your direct competitors, but what about the indirect competitors, right? Like what other solutions might have they tried that don’t look anything like your product but they thought that they might be a solution and are there insights there that from a marketing perspective, where rather than competing against your direct competitors on keywords, maybe you can compete for like, again, to try to get somebody who’s looking at an indirect competitor and try to convince them that your solution’s better. So that’s kind of the looking stage. Then they’ll start making a shortlist of like what they want. And they go into like decision mode. And in decision mode, they’re making trade offs. And they’re saying, like, you know, what are my anxieties about making this purchase? Like, what might hold me back and stop me from doing it? And ultimately, what’s pulling me towards making change? Like, what are my desires, my selfish desires? And those things are super compelling for us as marketers because we need to be able to help people to overcome their objections and we need to be able to speak to their selfish desires. That’s – the emotional stuff is way more compelling than, you know, the feature based stuff, as we know. And then they’ll ultimately say, okay, like, I’m going to choose this option, because… And there’ll be like a value proposition, right? Like this was the… I chose this one because… And when you get a sense of what that value proposition is, really strong indicator of like how you might want to position your product in the market, how you want to talk about it, what you want to have in that hero area of your of your website, or what kind of compelling copy you might use an ads, and then they’ll start using the product, and there’s going to be friction, there’s going to be things that they don’t like about it, things that annoy them when they’re trying to use it. You want to figure out what that stuff is so ultimately, you can probably engineer that out from a product perspective. But maybe there’s friction, and it’s because they’re not the right user, right? They’re not the right customer. And therefore it’s not a problem that they’re experiencing, especially because the product wasn’t built for them. And then that means that you maybe are targeting the wrong people. And you need to think about that, like, how are we getting all these people? Who our solutions aren’t the right fit for? Oh, it’s because our message isn’t strong enough, it’s not clear enough. And then they’ll start, they’ll talk about what they love about the product. And that’s an opportunity too, because then you can figure out, well, if they’re loving the product, how do we get them to share that? And how can we leverage kind of the social proof there? And then you’ll hear also usually kind of like, what is coming up for them that might be next in their journey. Like maybe they made the progress they were hoping to make, they kind of got their job done, but like in doing that, now there’s this new summit that they want to reach. And that can be hugely valuable, because it’s like, oh, is that a new product that we need to create? Or is that a partnership? Maybe we might partner with another brand so that we can make sure that we help them to get that next milestone achieved, and then they, you know, are more grateful to us as a brand. So just tons of stuff that can be actioned along the whole marketing journey. John Tyreman: Well, Katelyn, I’m over here, furiously taking notes, because this is some gold. I love the way that you look at the stages of the buyer journey. For example, like, you could target those trigger events, look for certain keywords around those trigger events, right? And that could help your search strategy. Or like you mentioned, the visuals that can come out of these interviews make for killer creative for paid social or display ad campaigns. Katelyn Bourgoin: Well, I’ll share with you. So in the research I was doing on these CBD gummies, one of the things I said earlier with this idea of like, it is so much like… there’s so much powerful stuff for copywriting. Like I call it like your swipeable copy. And one of the people that was writing a review, they wrote, their title of the review was like “Great for a moment of relief”. And then they said you know, “very great product, mother of two with the craziest days”. So that’s giving you a sense of like what’s happening in this person’s life, like what are their pain points? And they said, “These gems helped me to unload after the bedtime frenzy and have a moment of solitude and total relaxation without any anxious thoughts getting in the way”. So it’s like, okay, like you just described to me who this person is, I have a sense of what they’re trying to do. So they’re taking these after the bedtime frenzy. Well, you can do day part setting on Facebook ads, right like maybe we want to just target women who are likely to be having that moment of you know that stress after the bit of nighttime frenzy. And maybe we want to target women specifically with actually – CBD cannabis products can’t use ads, but theoretically, if you were not restrained, like they are. There’s a lot of cool insight there. Right? It’s like, okay, like they’re feeling all of this stress after the bedtime frenzy, and that would be a really great time to get in front of them and promote our ads. Right? How timely is that? And they talked about the anxious thoughts getting in the way of relaxation. Like the copy – your copy just starts to write itself when you hear these things but also your campaigns just start to come to life. And then another person in the same product – another reviewer of the same product – they said, “Finally turns my mind off”. That’s an ad hook right there. Like, finally turns my mind off? Like, that speaks to me as like a woman. But this idea and they said it in the review, they said “Banish thoughts of the never ending to do list”. Again, your ads are starting to write themselves, right? So this is what’s so powerful is that oftentimes we think that we need to be really clever as marketers, but customers are out there giving us – they’re giving us so many clues, they’re almost doing our work for us, if we would just pay attention and really, really listen, and make sure that we are paying attention to what’s happening in their lives, and then making sure that we’re mapping our marketing efforts back to being able to help them. John Tyreman: I love the idea of swiping customer copy, or customer testimonials. And using that in your copy. That’s so great, because that’s exactly who they want to hear from. Customers want to hear from other customers. Just a quick summary. So it sounds like people hire products to do a job. And marketers should talk with their customers to get out what those jobs are that they’re trying to do. And take those qualitative insights, and then use them in their marketing, so long as they have a good map of their customer journey. So this is some really great stuff. Kailyn. Katelyn Bourgoin: That’s right. And the thing that I’ll add to this too, and similar to like our joke about the right fit of jeans, you won’t know, this is the thing that I think we as marketers struggle with, and particularly when you are on the service side and serving clients, like there’s so much stuff that you need – the goal isn’t to always be right, it’s to be less wrong. I think that Rory Sutherland said that first. But like, it’s not about always being right. We’re going to make guesses, we’re going to cover the hypothesis, we’re going to run experiments that are not going to work. But the goal is to be less wrong. And what’s beautiful about what we do today in marketing is it’s so easy to experiment and put things out in front of real buyers and see how they respond. And qualitative research, it just helps you to get less wrong a hell of a lot faster than just guessing. So many brands would never admit that they’re guessing, but if you’re doing most of your work based on, you know, internal stakeholders’ opinions, and just kind of quantitative data, but you’re not actually understanding the why behind why people buy, there’s still a lot of guessing happening. And you’ve got to – and it doesn’t have to be hard to get these qualitative insights. But it does require effort and access to customers. But it can get you to the right place so much faster. It can help you to become less wrong, and more right, so much faster than other approaches. John Tyreman: It’s not always about being right. It’s about being less wrong. I love that. Well, Katelyn, thank you so much for your time today. I could go on and on talking about buyer psychology and market research with you. But if folks want to learn more about you and about Customer Camp and the services you offer, where can they find you? Katelyn Bourgoin: So I’d say the first point to connect with me would definitely be on Twitter, I’m really active there. I love chatting with people there. If you have any questions following listening to this, that would be a great place to ask them. And I’m @katebour – so K-A-T-E-B-O-U-R. And from there, you can find my website, which is CustomerCamp.co. You can learn a little bit more about what we do there. We offer private workshops like we did with the Silverback team. And we have a couple of kind of DIY research products -more to come actually. And that’s… I’d say those are the places. And the other thing that I’d recommend is checking out our newsletter. So from a jobs to be done perspective, what we do as an organization is we help marketers to better understand why people buy so they can market smarter. And one way we do that is through customer research. That’s one of the applications and one of the other ways we do that is through helping them to better understand buyer psychology and how people make decisions. And we do that through a free newsletter called “Why We Buy” so you can find the sign up to that on Twitter, or on my website. John Tyreman: Excellent. Well, everyone listening to this podcast episode should absolutely give you a follow on Twitter and sign up for your newsletter. Katelyn, thank you again so much for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure. Katelyn Bourgoin: Thanks for having me.